Talk:Lightning
LIGHTNING Voting Machine *RU: молния *BY: бліскавіца *UA: блискавка *PL: błyskawica *CZ: blesk *SK: blesk *SL: strela *HR: munja *BS: munja *SR: munja *MK: молња *BG: мълния *– bliskavica: 1.5 votes (59 mln. speakers) *– blesk: 1 votes (18 mln. speakers) *– bliskavka: 0.5 votes (47 mln. speakers) :*'TOTAL VOTES = 3.0' *– molnija: 1 votes (145 mln. speakers) *– munja: 0.75 votes (19 mln. speakers) *– molnja: 0.5 votes (2 mln. speakers) *– mǎlnija: 0.5 votes (9 mln. speakers) :*'TOTAL VOTES = 2.75' *– strela: 0.25 votes (2 mln. speakers) --Steevenusx 17:59, February 21, 2010 (UTC) Slavic God - "Piorun" This was the most sad word which I translated :'( Just Polish and Kashubian have the Slavic god - "Piorun" "Piorën" - in their speech, the other languages lost it as far as I see it :( Poloniak 14:11, February 21, 2010 (UTC) Poloniak, sad thing!... However, I would understand Perun as well) may be include it as synonym? Do West Slavs understand word molnia? I understand both molnia ''and ''bleskavica. Moraczewski 09:14, February 24, 2010 (UTC) By the way there is a question about vowel in the root "bl*sk". In ProtoSlavic it was ie Currently only Polish, and UA/BY (apparently influenced by Polish) have switched to i, while Russian and South Slavs remain with e''. Even though South Slavs and Russian don't use this root for "lighting", they use it for "flash": ''blesk, and these words should have the same root 'in IS as well. So I would suggest ''blesk for "flash" and bleskavica ''for "lighting". Moraczewski 09:21, February 24, 2010 (UTC) I've changed the name of God from Piorun to Perun because jokanie is not common Slavic feature. Moraczewski 09:25, February 24, 2010 (UTC) Also we have to be more consistent about -ol- words. There are many of them, including ''polk, volk, solnce, žoltij, polnij... All Slavic languages are consistent about these words, why must IS have volk, sunce ''and ''mulnia? This is not logical at all. --Moraczewski 09:27, February 24, 2010 (UTC) Re: '''"SUNCE" - IS changed its word from "SUNCE" to "SOLNCE" at online dictionary - perhaps three weeks ago. Sorry, I did not realise it was not changed here in Slovknig. However, this again raises an important methodology issue here, Andej. As I have commented at the Slovianski forum, most of the Slovianski word choices - and especially your word choices, appear to based upon first, engineering linguistics; and second, Russian influences. ...the first is "my observation" ; the second is the observation from the Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs and Croates I work with every day. An example of the second is noted below with regard to the word for "lightning" - Russian uses "MOLNIA" and Serbs and Croates use "MUNIA". To accommodate the "use" patterns of both, the initial word selection for IS was "MULNIA". However, you then changed this to "MOLNIA" - and your "argument" above notes that "...we have to be more consistent about -ol- words..." Consistency is not what is "at point" for this word. What is at point is what is recognisable and a compromise between the different speakers. This approach is based NOT in "engineering linguistics" - but on the realities of the various words that slavic speakers use. Thus, to the Croatian who wrote me the NOTE copied below, "MULNIA" is a healthy compromise between the RUSSIAN "MOLNIA" and the SERBO-CROATIAN "MUNIA" - do you not agree, Andrej? Steevenusx 18:31, February 24, 2010 (UTC) ---- What do you mean by this? That jo/io is not common in Slavic languages? Russian has even ё as letter -'Poloniak' via email (copied to here by steevenusx) And about Piorun. The name of the God of Thunder is: RUS: Перун BY: Пярун UKR: Перун CZ: Perun HR: Perun BG: Перун MK: Перун PL: Perun SK: Perún Ślůnski: Perun only Kashubian have Piorun. I think we should select the most common name, shouldn't we? Moraczewski 19:13, February 24, 2010 (UTC) ANDREJ: The question is NOT what is the name of the Slavic god. But what do the Poles and the Kashubians use for the word "LIGHTNING"? They use a word spelled: "PIOR*N" '.... not ''"PER*N" YOU will not use this word in your writings. But a Pole will, most likely, use the word PIORUN and not "PERUN" That is the point! Steevenusx 19:29, February 24, 2010 (UTC) I don't know how in other languages but in polish "błyskawica" is light effect of "piorun" (sound effect is "grzmot"). SlavicJones 17:19, February 25, 2010 (UTC) Jones, You mean that "piorun" is global name for "lighting & thunder"? Russian has молния only for "lighting" and гром for "thunder" but no common name. Moraczewski 17:29, February 25, 2010 (UTC) Yes exactly. In polish you can say "zobaczyłem błyskawicę" or "słyszałem grzmot" but "piorun uderzył" . SlavicJones 18:25, February 25, 2010 (UTC) MOLNIA vs. MULNIA vs. MUNIA Andrej: here is comment from one of our Croatian kolegi: ''"Stefan'' ''Why your russian drug change perfectly good kompromis of words molnia and munia? Who he thinks he is, Stalin?!"'' Steevenusx 16:15, February 24, 2010 (UTC) ---- I have rolled back '''"molnia" to its original "mulnia"; and perun to piorun until we can get this resolved. As you can see from the reaction of my Croatian koleg, there is great sensitivity over these word-forms. I have already noted on the SVI-Forum that engineering principles cannot be the sole criteria for selection of words. Consideration must be given to compromise among words to satisfy the different speakers. Poloniak rightfully raises a good point with the change you mande to perun. Polish and Kashubian both are the only languages that still use the original slavic god as the word for "lightning" - and they both spell this word "pior*n" and not "perun" --Steevenusx 17:19, February 24, 2010 (UTC) So we have to change solnce ''to ''sulnce ''because it is compromise between ''sunce ''and ''solnce volk ''to ''vulk ''because it is compromise between ''vuk ''and ''volk polnij ''to ''pulnij ''because it is compromise between ''puni ''and ''polnij I can live with any of those variants, but just one! all Slavic languages have inner logic, they have either volk, polk, polnij, solnce or puk, vuk, punij, sunce, or plk, vlk, plnij, slnce , they don't mix that. Moraczewski 19:13, February 24, 2010 (UTC)\ We have to choose what lingual changes we bring and what we ill leave. Because slavic languages passed different ones. This is reason why are still similar problems with different words in same languages. SlavicJones 17:22, February 25, 2010 (UTC) Jones, if I understand you correctly, you talk about phonetical development? The laws of phonetical development are different in different languages, but they cause the same patterns for different words. All words that had Proto-Slavic *ъr have now syllabic -''r-'' in Czech, Slovak and Southern Slavic languages; -a''r''- in Polish and -''or''- in Eastern Slavic languages. All words that had Proto-Slavic *ъl have now syllabic -''l''- in Slovak, -u- in BCS, -''ol''- in Eastern Slavic languages, Slovene and Macedonian and various reflexes in Czech (mainly syllabic -''r''-) and Polish. So now we have several dozens of words that have the same problem. I think it is not practically to solve the same problem for each word. Once we decide it - and we interpolate the decision on other words. So if we have mulnia, so we should have vulk, kulbasa, mulvit, pulnij, žultij... because of the same reasons: compromise between -u- and -ol- that happens to each of these words equally. Moraczewski 17:24, February 25, 2010 (UTC) PIORUN vs PERUN So you suggest using Perun ''for the name of the God and ''Piorun ''for ''lighting? I think it is not wise. If I know that Perun ''is the God, I will understand that when you say ''perun ''talking about the weather - that is clearly related to lighting. But ''Piorun ''is not clear this way because the name of the God is ''Perun ''for most of us. Moraczewski 16:18, February 25, 2010 (UTC) No. 1. I am not addressing the name of the slavic god, at all ( or on derivatively). 2. I proposed "Piorun" because in the listed slavic languages here, only two languages use the SOUND of "pior*n" - Polish and Kashubian. And because there are 49 million Polish speakers, I deferred the spelling of the word to the Polish version: "piorun". Steevenusx 16:53, February 25, 2010 (UTC) This is the "engineering" approach... What I suggest is to create word that is understandable for everyone - not only for Poles and Kashubes. Not followed by any mathematic but only by association: Perun -> The God of The Thunder and Lighting -> Lighting. Moraczewski 17:14, February 25, 2010 (UTC) '''POLONIAK' was the first to ask that we include the Polish word for "lightning" as part of the vocabulary. Since all of the other "national" Slavic languages use different words for "lightning" - my answer was to propose the word that Poles already know and understand. I understand your approach also. If I were a "judge" or "jury" in a court, where I had to be fair/equitable to all people - I would use the word PERUN. POLONIAK and JONES - what are your thoughts and comments? Steevenusx 20:40, February 25, 2010 (UTC) My main argument is that there's no need to create a word that will be used by Poles/Kashubs and understandable only by Poles/Kashubs - this is no more a common language, is it? Far better to apply some change so it can be used in whole Slavic world with greater understandability. Poloniak? Jones? Moraczewski 04:45, February 26, 2010 (UTC) ---- Andrej pisal: "...there's no need to create a word that will be used by Poles/Kashubs and understandable only by Poles/Kashubs..." Ja dumam že to jes zašto imame slovkniga - tak kda ne razumite slowa, možete go naidet tam. Ne? --Steevenusx 07:26, February 26, 2010 (UTC) Again and again. What is our language for? For me one of main criterias is Understandability. Otherwise we can include all possible words from different languages, this is not common language, this is to allow everyone speak his own language. Moraczewski 09:56, March 1, 2010 (UTC)